The reality of depression
January 14, 2010 - 16:39
Time for some frank discussion.
I've made it a point throughout the course of my radio career to be honest about my chronic depression. The same way that - when relevant to the conversation - I'll mention my bum knees or my less-than-perfect spine, I've never flinched when it's natural to say I suffer from depression.
Correction: sometimes I've flinched, but I've done it anyway.
People see me as a high achiever. Because they hear me on the radio; because I come across as bright and somewhat accomplished; because I have a quick wit and sound like someone you might want to have coffee or a cocktail with, it's easy to see me in your mind as a person who pretty much gets what she wants and needs out of life.
That's why it's important to me that you know people like me might very well have depression. Lots of people do, people who you'd never imagine have it. As I do, and as I always have. It's controlled with meds and lifestyle adjustments, and for the most part I have a great life and good solid mental health.
But just as my knees moan and groan when it's about to rain, or my back complains when I overestimate my abilities to lift and carry, my depression can rear its ugly face right in mine when the load gets too heavy.
Today Gordon Whiting and I had planned on putting an online show up. It would be only our second since we left the airwaves. When for the third day running I couldn't roust myself to do what's necessary, we decided to call it off. Instead, we're having an open liveblog at 4pm Pacific. That's just half an hour away.
We do have some minor tech issues that we could easily point to as to why we're not up today. But what service would that be to you? Or to me? If I were out with a bad flu, or had laryngitis, we'd simply say so. And all would nod their heads and say, well, it's a good thing she's taking care of herself.
Depression is exactly the same. It's an illness. To pretend I'm not out sick today would be an act of shame and fear. My illness has flared up. Mom died last week, I'm in a tenuous financial situation (another thing so many of us have in common!), and there are other personal strains on me that have become too much taken all at once. I'm using what energy I have to get better and get back to work.
So tonight I won't bring you any unique perspectives or analysis on the very important issues of the day. Instead I offer you this small insight into the lives of your colleagues and loved ones who have the same ailment I do, and who sometimes are better off not working that day.
If you're one of this particular gang - hail, fellow depresso! And if you're not, good for you, and I hope this has helped you to understand.
Gordon and Ellen, my beloved partners in this show, thanks for your understanding and patience. I'm confident we'll be back up ASAP. Meanwhile, thank you for allowing me the time to get better.
And to our wonderful supportive listeners, who might wonder why I haven't returned your calls, emails, inquiries - now you know. I'm digging out slowly and will get back to you one at a time. Despite my neglect, for which I do apologize, I so appreciate you!
January 14, 2010 - 18:26
#2
Thank you so much, Mel!
That means a lot to me, just as much as your continuing loyalty to the show.
Ironically, just the act of writing and posting this, then seeing the amazing response - well over 200 hits in just a couple hours, plus some very moving personal replies - well, it's added up to an emotional boost. To use feeling like crap to help other people - that's an odd little gift there, isn't it?
Your honesty is brave and kind. Thank you, Mel!!
January 14, 2010 - 18:33
#3
Thank you, Angie
A clear and candid account, and much appreciated. You are greatly loved, and if that isn't a cure, at least it can be a palliative.
January 14, 2010 - 18:45
#4
You could never guess (yea right)
Most of the time, I am a very perky person (Goth), but there are days that unfortunately are becoming more frequent were my strange attire stays in the closet and I lounge around in a pit of dispair, looking and feeling mundane.
The financial realities are weighing down on me more and more. I am finding myself to not be me, and hide, my flying goals just seems to be draggin on. Then there is the idea that there are people who have done nothing but run this country into the ground getting bonuses that are higher than the worth of my mom's house.
Yes, I am depressed, and have been getting more so in recent weeks. I am looking at the prospect of returning to the job that nearly completely destroyed me, due to the sheer banality of it. I cannot find a job otherwise.
Depression is a common thing in our society, and it seems to be getting worse.
I went out this weekend, thoroughly enjoyed myself with a lady that I thought had left me life forever several years ago. Then I saw the effect on my finances.
That is depressing.
I feel worthless. This time last year I was a very requested pilot of the traffic watch squadron, I flew with the legendary (of the bay area airwaves anyway:)) Rich Davis, and later Gary Hansen. I was honing my skills with my job in aviation maintenance. Now where am I? At home, day in and day out, excluding weekends. My friends are getting laid off, or hours seriously cut. There are days I shine (Halloween, New Years, other parties or gatherings) but most of the time, I am dull.
I am glad to know I am not alone in this though, I would never have guessed the Mom cat as a depresso :)
I just wish I knew how to Get out of the pit, and be me.
January 14, 2010 - 19:07
#5
I am so sorry
I absolutely believe there's a huge domino effect of this economy on our ability to buoy ourselves up. Not just us clinically-diagnosable folk - everyone. Everyone has a tipping point, and more of us reach it when the things we've come to accept as stable and normal are yanked out of our lives. Employment; some level of ease with money; some belief that our industries have a future.
I would never presume to hand out advice, Pythos. But I can tell you how very much you're valued in our community, that we love seeing you on the blog, that your wit and presence make a difference in our lives.
Thanks for being so open! And David, you darling guy - thank you too.
January 14, 2010 - 19:34
#6
This has inspired me, actually.
The sheer volume of response here and elsewhere leads me to think we -- you, me, the people we live with and around -- could benefit from some shows on depression. I'm on it.
January 14, 2010 - 20:17
#7
hey pythos !!
i don't know, what can i say?? i have been living on "air" it seems. money has been evaiding me as well. even my food stamp card won't be re-filled because the agency is 3 weeks behind in processing so, too bad. ummm, ok. thank the stars for food banks. yeah, if i didn't have the library (books, job info, computer), or the food banks (FREE FOOD, although ya gotta be careful about some of it : ( ), and my wonderful bus pass (bus rides to everywhere), and my legs to walk me around, i think i would be so, so low. i do talk with my pals who agree that it is indeed hard to stay positive in this environment of no jobs, no money, and sarah palin on faux tv!!!! yeah, amazingly enough, i have my sense of humor. it helps me to get out (if you read above, sometimes that can be hard enough), get out and walk, or take the bus. i have had great little conversations with folks while we both wait for the bus. it's fun talking with elderly folks. it is different for me up here in seattle for some reason. i haven't been as depressed as i would get i oakland. and my life there was "better": an income, friends close by, access to a car for little money. but now, it seems, with me far away, i have stayed in touch with my friends a bit better and i have reached out and asked for help, which i sometimes, most times, think i can do it all by myself. even applying for food stamps, hell, i probably should have done this in oakland, where i was "head above water"; it would of helped. of course, i'm not thrilled to have to go through the governmental shit that one has to "prove" that one is "poor enough" for them to help. but that's another story, yes?? what am i saying to you pythos? i love seeing your entries because you are so eloquent (sp?). you're like a poet. i like reading/seeing that there are other sensitive folks out there like me. anyway, this will pass. it has to. do things that make you feel good. i am hoping to be in the bay area this next week, if it isn't raining. why the rain concern? because i have gardening work waiting for me!!! thank you universe. so.......a beer with friends???? mel
January 15, 2010 - 01:13
#8
Take your time.
Hey, Angie. I think taking your depression issue public on the blog was the right thing to do. I even think doing so, along with the response, has energized you. Take the time you need to get up and going again, and remember, as dgans said, we love you.
January 15, 2010 - 03:10
#9
A public service
This is obviously resonating with a lot of us. You're doing a public service, Ange, by talking about depression -- and in real time, no less. I definitely want to be in on this conversation!
January 15, 2010 - 11:41
#10
Oh, you will be!
You can bet on it.
January 15, 2010 - 11:37
#11
Thanks, mec!
Although, this exercise is less about me than it is about getting this conversation out in the open. And you're absolutely right; it's energizing.
I'm sketching out a series of online conversations about depression in its many, many facets. They'll all go up here on the site, and I hope they help get new, updated information into the larger conversation.
I'm open to any and all suggestions as to subtopics and guests. I'd like to get the first one up next week.
January 15, 2010 - 13:54
#12
Depressingly normal
I was shocked when I was clinically diagnosed a few years ago as having severe depression. I was feeling down and discouraged and so on, but I had no idea that what I was feeling constituted severe depression. It turned out that my normal was a "normal" person's depression, and has probably been such all my life.
With a lot of ambivalence, but feeling at wit's end and deciding, "what the hell, nothing else has seemed to work," I elected to try the medication approach (seritonin reuptake inhibitors). It actually seemed to help significantly, in some ways seeming to make a bigger difference in how others experienced me than in how I experienced myself. I was able to get out of the complete inertial mire and absence of any self confidence, and start to accomplish something for a change.
I continue to have a lot of skepticism about such drugs; I wonder how much of the effect is just placebo and so on (though a very recent study does indicate that there's demonstrably more than a placebo effect, at least for those with more severe depression). I continue to feel that there must be some more spiritual flaw(s) involved, both on a personal and on a societal level (given how widespread the use of these drugs has become). In the last year there have been local reports of shockingly high levels of seritonin reuptake inhibitor drugs (the most prevalent anti-depressants) in the waterways of the greater Portland area, so I know I must have lots of company. Perhaps I should take comfort in that, but not so much.
This is a central facet of the issue for me, and I'm sure for many: are we just treating symptoms with these drugs, and dodging the "real" issues, or is this kind of depression really just a biochemical malfunction? To me, this debate feels parallel to a lot of major debates and polarities in our global arguments these days.
January 17, 2010 - 18:47
#13
Man, David!
I could've written a lot of that! Especially
I was feeling down and discouraged and so on, but I had no idea that what I was feeling constituted severe depression. It turned out that my normal was a "normal" person's depression, and has probably been such all my life.
As far as my doctors and I have determined, mine started around age 4.
I saw that same study review you did, about the efficacy of drugs in the severely depressed. Made a lot of sense to me. Here's something I wrote up on the internet when it came out:
Finally, something that makes sense in the ongoing research on
antidepressants.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/06/health/views/06depress.html?em
Indications here are that severe depression is probably helped by the
meds, whereas mild-to-moderate does essentially as well on placebo.
Earlier studies that meds are on a par with placebo overall perplexed
the hell out of me. I gave up my meds and over about two years my life
quality slid into hell. I went back to therapy and the assessment showed
how much ground I'd lost. Back on the meds, and the clouds slowly but
definitely cleared out.
The critical element here is that I did *not* fall back downhill
because I believed I needed the meds. I figured they had done their
job, I was on an even keel, and life moved on from there. The "placebo
effect" didn't apply in this case. So how could these studies be
accurate?
Well, if this more sweeping assessment holds water, there's the
answer. My depression is severe enough that I need the ongoing
bolstering effect of the meds.
More on meds downstream, where I see Melody is on the same topic.
As far as whether we're dealing effectively with the "real issues" or just smoothing over symptoms - that opens up a whole 'nother can of worms. I'm already shaping a discussion over who's best situated to prescribe mental-health drugs. IMNSHO, it's a disservice for a family physician or internist to hand these out without firmly insisting on some kind of cognitive therapy with it. Every individual case carries its own stamp - nature, nurture, chemical factors, and some percentage of all of the above that can't be detangled. To pretend a scrip can deal effectively and responsibly with that, to the best service of the client - BZZZZZT. Nope.
January 18, 2010 - 16:02
#14
As far as whether we're
As far as whether we're dealing effectively with the "real issues" or just smoothing over symptoms - that opens up a whole 'nother can of worms.
Indeed. I elaborate on that at great length, I'm sure, but I figured the post was getting long enough as it was! And to the point of your following comments, I have experienced both kinds of practitioners: docs who will prescribe anti-depressants at the drop of a hat, with little therapy to complement it (in that case it was almost 20 years ago, and I had major external issues to explain that episode of severe depression), and this much more recent experience where I went through formal clinical diagnosis in the absence of any substantial external crisis in my life. In the latter case, I felt like I got a comprehensive therapy plan, with great support from the nurse practitioner who managed my case initially.
January 16, 2010 - 09:53
#15
Me and drugs
I do not feel I am need of drugs. What I need is for closed minded people to go away :)
I know that is not a reality.
What helps me come out of the blues? Honestly, and you may think this is the oddest and weirdest thing you have ever heard, but It when I am having fun, and I am dressed in stuff I like to be in, opposed to what I am expected by society to be in.
As I said, weird. I think it is just feeling like myself, instead of what society has tried to make me. What really puts me in the stratosphere is when my appearance draws compliments. I think it is because I am doing something so different and giving people something exotic, and attractive (somehow, LOL).
I personally think, depression is entirely a product of our environment. I think it is the culmination of years and years of having to "go gettem", or being the "good" son or daughter. Living by too many other people's rules, instead of being who you are, and being the best you can be It is very complicated for me to explain, most likely cause I don't fully understand.
My deepest bout of depression was when I worked at Paratransit. The job had good intention, but my God does it pave the road to hell. The sheer banality of it drove me deep into those dark and gloomy caves of depression. Day in and day out I was in a vehicle in crummy parts of the area, for 8 or more hours with NO MUSIC (that is enough to drive me batty), and in a scratchy and itchy uniform. I so much wanted to ask if I could supplant the crummy polyester pants with a pair of my leggings, or even a skirt, but fear stopped that. (fear is another depression inducer as far as I can tell,I was scared of losing a job that was destroying me, now that is irrational.). This was not helped by the knowledge that I had that our business was making some lousy CEO and stock holders filthy rich, off of the money the company was making providing a service, and paying the drivers crud wages. Some of the people I met in that job were for lack of a better term horrible examples of humanity, but there were those jems that were all too rare but made you feel good.
I am just happy that I am not in need of drugs, I am not certain of the effects it is having on our environment nor ourselves. I have heard reports some of these drugs are being found in some water sources following treatment in a sewage plant. That is scary stuff there.
I just wish more people would truly follow the golden rule, along with "live and let live". Instead of having to control everyone in some way or another.
right I am done with my bit, I shall step away from my gargoyle festooned podium and let the tomatoes fly. LOL
January 17, 2010 - 19:15
#16
Thanks for that, Py
So much in there!
I don't find it odd at all that you feel more stable and okay when you're doing stuff that makes you happy, and less so when you're trying to squeeze into somebody else's box. I went through that when I applied for a radio gig in Hawaii and got persuaded to be an ad sales rep! Dear god. Don't get me wrong, I have huge respect for a good salesperson. But I can't do what they do, and it couldn't have been further from my personal style (theater baby, club kid, utterly out of my depth in a business environment). Hell, mental health aside, it took a decade to recover my fashion sense!
I strongly disagree that all depression is caused by the environment. It's existed in every cultural environment humans have ever existed in. The science of depression (neurochemicals, serotonin uptake, etc.) is way too well developed to deny its legitimacy. This is from the Depression Center at the University of Michigan:
Although the exact causes of depression remain unknown, the current thinking is that depression is a brain disorder that is in part hereditary and is often assciated with current or early life stress. This combination of genetic and environmental factors causes specific changes in brain chemicals such as serotonin, norepinephrine or dopamine that may explain some of the depressive symptoms. It is also feared that the more frequent the episodes, the higher the likelihood that some form of brain damage in the form of brain tissue degeneration will occur. This however may be reversible with treatment.
The promise of course is that an illness caused by the brain might be fixable there. This is a 2006 NYTimes article on placing electrodes in the brain's "sadness center" for severe depression, and another recent one from the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette.
The bit I really wanted to find I came up empty on. It was in the 90s, I think, when a woman awake during brain surgery - a woman who'd never experienced the slightest hint of depression - suddenly began weeping and saying there was no reason to keep her alive. The surgeon realized the reaction followed his putting minor pressure on a particular spot on her brain. He eased it - she was fine. He repeated the pressure - she was in tears again.
Not conclusive, of course, but a strong case for physically-based depression.
One more interesting link: evidence that, with depression, the brain's "reward center" response is stunted.
January 18, 2010 - 16:37
#17
Great info, Angie!
That's a very succinct set of references you've provided there, Angie. It's just this sort of thing that finally convinced me to give drugs a shot this last time. It's such a complex set of issues, and it's clear to me now that while I doubt that drugs are "The Answer,", they can certainly be part of the answer for some people, a population that turns out to include me.
Pythos, I feel compelled to comment on
I am just happy that I am not in need of drugs
How do you know this? Have you had a clinical diagnosis? I'm not suggesting that you pursue such; my concern is that such a comment reflects a position that depression is not a medical issue, that it can't be a disease. For over 30 years of my adult life I did not believe I needed such drugs. And on some level I think I felt that those who did had failed in some way. What current research such as what Angie points to is demonstrating is that, at least in some cases, depression may really be no different than a broken bone or breast cancer or whatever.
To understand that depression can be comparable to such things really requires a pretty massive shift in many of the moral, religious, and mythic contexts that inform our perception of the world and ourselves. These heritages generally teach us quite the opposite; that depression is a failure of character or a consequence of our sin. These go hand in hand with the feeling of worthlessness that typically characterizes depression.
January 20, 2010 - 17:02
#18
Well, that is the sticking point of life
I am in an interesting position. No I have not been clinically diagnosed, nor have I had a professional determine this.
One) don't have the funds to do such thing ($5000 deductable med insurance),
Two) It is my understanding that if I were to even go to a health professional and the FAA found out, well I could kiss my Certificate bye bye, while they give me THEIR Psychological check. This process can take months (they did that to a friend of mine who went through gender reassignment surgery, despite the fact people dealing with the process told those feds she was fine. The Faa is very rigid in areas you would not think of. Being a womanizing drunk? Hey that's alright, just don't drink and fly within 8 hrs. But do something that is harmlesly odd? Oh well, We'll just mess with your life, and try to make you give up that which you did so much for. (they tried to make her go through the ENTIRE certification process from Student pilot to her current rating. I am not certain how that BS was curtailed)
What really stinks is just asking questions about mental issues, and stress might cause the FAA to over react.
January 20, 2010 - 17:53
#19
FAA neanderthals
Yeah, I think I'd be very leery of seeking a diagnosis too, were I wearing your shoes (pumps?). I am reminded of my provider warning me that if I went forward with the anti-depressants and the diagnosis, that it would become part of my medical record, and she made sure I was ok with that. Thankfully it's not an issue in my field(s).
Or is it?
I'm off my meds, the website's going to crash now, and I'm taking you all down with me! AY yi yi! Your seat cushion is NOT a flotation device!
Moo ha ha haaaaa.....
January 21, 2010 - 19:43
#20
No pumps just men's heeled boots
Though my ex wants to see me in heeled pumps. We shall see if I bow to her bidding.
Any how, that is a big fear of mine. What they did to my friend was unacceptable when they allow sociopaths to work on aircraft (one ex boss I had to turn in for crappy maintenance practices.)
What is sad is that nearly the entire psyciatiric community views crossdressing (which I fall under, even though I am not really) as a non issue. In fact in some circles it is encouraged or supported, for both men and women (though women are afforded far more flexibility in this area). Yet the Feds are still in the stone ages.
Ah well, what are you gonna do. There are far more important matters to deal with now, especially with the latest court ruling.
January 19, 2010 - 13:57
#21
I should clearify
I did one of my pet peeves, I put an umbrella statement when it came to the causes of depression. I should have put, and indeed did mean, when it comes to me the environment is the cause of depression.
I have known and been aware I am ever so slightly empathic. When I am with positive people, I am happy and goofy (in my own way), but when I am in negative complany (Mean people, unhappy people, and so on) I become a very dark (not in the goofy fun way, but DARK) person. I was a much different person in the final months of First Transit, which was a place Rife with negativity, and shall I say my personal shields were not ready.
For others there are other causes, including the chemical imbalance. I just don't like to hear that explanation because it scares me. It makes me ask "is everything I do, think, act, all just caused by chemicals, and electrical charges? Where is the soul?"
Are simply spiraling coils, of self replicating, DN, na na na na na A. (a cigar for whoever can guess that Python reference. :)
January 19, 2010 - 17:47
#22
My soul patch
This is very much what I am trying to point to, Pythos:
For others there are other causes, including the chemical imbalance. I just don't like to hear that explanation because it scares me. It makes me ask "is everything I do, think, act, all just caused by chemicals, and electrical charges? Where is the soul?"
This is a big issue for me, too. But being scared of it doesn't make it go away. For me, I have come to understand that this doesn't have to be a binary question. It's not one or the other. My soul still needs some way to interact with the physical world. And that's the biochemistry. I don't think it's entirely analogous to hardware and software in the computer sense, but there is some parallel there. The software may be just fine, but if there are problems in the hardware, you've got problems. And they are real.
January 20, 2010 - 16:53
#23
That is how I think of it
I am an anime fan, and am quite familiar with those big robots, that are piloted by humans. These things are known as Mechs. They allow the humans to exist in environments that are hostile to them.
That is how I view existence. The soul is the pilot of a mech, and the Mech? Well that would be the body. The levers and buttons of the mech, that would be the neourochemicals of or systems. Hydraulics? Muscles. You get the idea.
Basically our body is the vehicle which our soul uses to interact with this world. As out worldly that seems.
It is some method I use to figure out existence.
January 17, 2010 - 13:38
#24
speaking of depression and drugs
hey, after reading david's entry, i too have wondered if i "needed" drugs to help with my depression. do i have a chemical imbalance that a "simple" drug might fix?? and how does one know?? if i may ask, do you folks who are on drugs, do you feel that it has helped you?? is there a difference?? i'm asking because i am curious, not judgemental, ok?? i also have insomnia, which, i don't know, could be a symptom of depression??? i can' even "escape" if i can't sleep. my then girlfriend and i had gone to a therapist in the early '90's and she was a "big" name in the Anonymous world (A.A., coda, overeater's anon....) and a "big" name in the lesbian world. anyway, she barely talked with us before prescribing drugs for our "described depression". my girlfriend was very angry because this woman is in the 12-step and really it's about not "using", trying to make it in the world without drugs. for me, i wasn't so sure because i have had problems for awhile and i thought maybe they could help. i also rarely have the money or a consistent doctor to be able to pursue this train of thought. anyway, i have found, for me, regular and vigorous exercise helps, and eating well, as in staying away from TOO much sugar, alcohol, and pot. i also have to make sure i have food in the house because when i do get those "i-can't leave-the-house" feelings, then i am in trouble when i also don't have food available to me. i also agree with pythos and feel that we as people all too often think we have to "fit in" and we suppress our true selves. depression is suppressed angry. well, another two cents worth, yeah?? so.......when am i supposed to "hang it up" when it comes to trying to find a job here in seattle?? and now with the big storms coming to california, i can't come down there and do some gardening and make some money. hmmm....the gardens will wait for me, i know. this is sort of like a relationship that's in trouble: when does one know that one must push on and fight or is it time to say "see ya"??? any thoughts??? i know i decided to "voluntarily" become unemployed at a very unopportune time (very much hindsight, i really didn't think i would have this much trouble), but heck, how do the folks do it who have been out of work for WAY longer than me???????
January 17, 2010 - 19:27
#25
Lots of my thoughts on drugs upstream, but
I can not resist responding to your then-GF's equating mental-health meds with "using".
Drugs that address malfunctions in our brains are no more "using" than is insulin for a diabetic. It's a correction to a piece of us that is operating incorrectly. It's not analogous at all to shooting up or even smoking a cigarette. Addictive drug use is self-medicating, intended to wall off or escape from bad feelings. A seratonin-uptake inhibitor (as one example) does nothing of the sort. It's designed to fix an imbalanced system.
The misconception isn't hard to understand. Early "depression meds" zonked people out or were "feel-good" pills, pre-dating the science we have today. Lots of them, too, were highly addictive.
I lost a friend of mine to cocaine who was tentatively accepted to a highly-regarded residential treatment program based in San Mateo. (This was some fifteen years ago, and since I hope to hell they've smartened up since then, I won't name the program.) He was allowed to enter - provided he stop taking his anti-depressants! What ignorance! What stupidity! He was self-medicating with coke because he was depressed, dammit! So of course his efforts failed. He later spent time in jail after a multi-day binge, and has since disappeared entirely.
So yeah, I'm a bit sensitive on this one.
January 17, 2010 - 14:32
#26
i know this isn't on topic but.....
......while i was checking out the weather via ktvu.com, i noticed that another rape has happened to a 15 year old girl!!!!!! i can't believe how violent richmond is. it makes me sick and very sad. and very sorry....
January 18, 2010 - 14:09
#27
Somehow just as sad
in a different way is that she made the story up.
Her life is such that she knew it would be believable, given her neighborhood and its realities.
January 18, 2010 - 02:29
#28
*hugs*
Angie, first I want to say that while I enjoy the hell out of your show, I hope more than anything you take care of you first. :)
On one end of the spectrum, I get what you're saying about a chemical imbalance. A love of mine was paralyzed (before I knew her) by OCD and Bipolar Disorder and was so messed up that she ended up living in her car, barely able to function. She got on meds (Lithium, to be precise) and it changed her life. She now is a college grad, married, and lives a pretty successful life. When I hear people poo poo being medicated and my mind always turns to Des.
On the other side of the spectrum, I think of the words of Marc Maron who said: Being depressed isn't a sign of illness, it's a sign of being awake! At one time in my life I was horribly unhappy with the direction of my life and I went to a doctor who proscribed me meds which caused me to have suicidal ideation . Not a good thing when you lived on the 29th floor of a high rise. I stopped taking the meds and concentrated on changing the things that caused me to be depressed in the first place.
I think depression is a lot like cancer. People say "we should cure cancer". But the reality is that the genesis of certain cancers are specific to behaviors (smoking comes to mind), while some are genetic, and while others are from environmental exposure. There's no one right answer to depression, because it can have many different sources.
January 18, 2010 - 14:03
#29
Disagree with Maron completely!
I think he's conflating being unhappy or dissatisfied with the state of the world, as opposed to being clinically diagnosable as depressed. They're two different things.
(By the way, this is a great time to clarify that I speak only from my own experience and layperson's research. I'm in no way qualified to address these issues professionally.)
I completely agree about the widely-varied breeding grounds for depression. So do the bulk of experts, from what I've read. What's new in the picture is that, despite how the condition gets started, it can develop physical facets. If, say, someone is born "normal" into an abusive family, the brain can ultimately manifest damage - not from the physical abuse, but from the mental self-messaging that results.
I feel like I'm wandering into areas where I can easily misspeak. I'll ask my buddy who's consulting on the Depression Chronicles series to come in and address some of this.
I mentioned elsewhere my fervent belief that doctors shouldn't be handing out meds without accompanying therapy and a thorough psychological work-up. If you don't mind saying - what were your circumstances? Were the meds an adjunct to the larger emotional work you were doing, or prescribed for you as if for a headache or flu?
I absolutely believe meds are not always the way to go. But one med not working (or as in your case, working badly!) doesn't negate the possibility that the right med could still help.
January 18, 2010 - 14:46
#30
Sorry if I didn't clarify that...
I've got to go to work, but I'll write more later.
I just want to say that I definitely do think Maron's statement is valid, but I do think there are unhappy people and then there are people who are clinically depressed. I've known people who lean on anti-depressants to deal with the side effects of life, instead of the the cause. There's a reason the Buddhists say that suffering is one of the four noble truths. Life for most people sucks, most of the time. From my experience and my observation, that's been a pretty consistent truth.
But... before you jump on me Angie, I don't believe that's the case for everyone. I do think there are people in history that you can point to that had obvious clinical depression and other defects in their body chemistry that caused them to live with mental illness (Virginia Woolf being one, off the top of my head).
My situation? I'd lost all visitation of my daughter, for the crime of being a transsexual. In my divorce I'd lost everything (marriage, money, car, visitation of my children), even hope. The only thing that kept me from killing myself was the fact that my father drank himself to death and I didn't want that for my kids. The meds were at a tipping point when I was seeing a licensed psychotherapist. I felt like a zombie. I didn't want to live and I couldn't kill myself. It was a long way out of it, but I'm grateful where I am today. I worked through what was at the core of my problems, and I'm feeling great today. I'm not stupid enough to think that my experience=everyone elses. I love Des, and I know it made a huge difference in her life. I know it allows her to live, not just exist.
In the end, I don't think that the good doctor here is disagreeing with me, or I with them. Therapy helped to teach me coping skills I didn't have before. But suggesting therapy will cure all depression is like saying that diet will cure all diabetics. That just isn't true, and if people believe that it can be life threatening.
More later....
January 18, 2010 - 15:19
#31
Martha, not jumping on you!
I'm so sorry if I gave that impression! (Not to be confused with the famous non-apology, "I'm sorry if you feel that way." ;)
In fact, it looks like you and I are essentially on the same page all around. Depression has many and varied roots, many and varied treatments, one size definitely does NOT fit all, and your mileage may vary.
I still think Maron's comment reflects either a misunderstanding or disregard of the realities of depression. But you and I can be okay with that wee disagreement!
Thanks so much for telling your story.
January 18, 2010 - 12:58
#32
Loved Ones Hurt Too
As the parent of a child with depression and anxiety, I can tell you that it's not only the person with the depression that hurts. Nothing worse than watching a child suffer and feeling helpless to stop their pain.
January 18, 2010 - 13:45
#33
And now a word from your LFTLC mental health professional
This is a rich and wonderful conversation -- and as I said earlier a true public service. While this conversation might be personal in nature, it has a role to play in the political theater that LFTLC has been so adroitly examining.
I have the triple delight of being a mental health professional AND a carrier of chronic (but well-treated) depression AND a recovering alcoholic. I'm incredibly fortunate in that my own depression is fairly mundane: once the SSRIs came out, a simple script for Prozac took care of it. I shake my head in frustration that the state of the science is still
at a point where dialing in the right diagnosis and the right treatment
regimen is often a painful process of trial and error. For so many, depression comes along with what we in the bizz call "mixed features": anxiety, agitation, and other symptoms that require a combination of meds and often require that the meds be changed periodically. If "depressos" mobilized like AIDS patients did in the 80's, might we have better research into this?
The very best treatment for severe depression is (as far as we know
today) a combo platter of medication and cognitive behavioral therapy
(CBT). What CBT does is help train us to manage our thoughts and
behaviors in such a way so that our health and well-being is maximized.
It's more about supporting your strength than it is about treating your
weakness. The interplay between genetics, neurochemistry and environment is like that of a finely tuned ensemble cast.
To the lady upstream whose girlfriend equated medication with "using". Ay yi yi yi yi. Sad and deeply wrong -- but I understand the POV. My brothers and sisters in the rooms of AA have gotten each other sober for the better part of a century now on the sheer miracle that can happen when one drunk talks to another. No fancy mental health mumbo jumbo, no pills -- just fellowship and following some very useful suggestions (known to all as the 12 steps).
The truth is traveling with addiction and mental illness is really difficult and vexing. If alcohol is "cunning, baffling and powerful" (as the Big Book says), then the combo platter of alcohol (and other addictive drugs) and depression is exponentially more so.
I think that a lot of people saw the unique struggles of these "co-occurring disorders" and blamed the medications for the problems. In reality, it's the depression itself (OR the anxiety or bi-polar condition, etc.) that makes addiction that much harder to transcend. Often addiction makes depression difficult to see, treat and transcend.
See, what is tricky about mental illness -- and addiction -- is that these conditions are in the brain. That very organ through which all of our experiences are mediated. Every feeling, every thought, every emotion, every thing we know about being alive is produced for us in the brain. Addiction tricks the brain into thinking that, in order to survive, we need to take a drug that actually is killing us. Depression also changes not only the way we FEEL but also the way we THINK. It dulls our physical senses. It alters our perceptions. It rescripts the very contents of our thoughts. Ideas a healthy-brained person would recognize as insane seem perfectly logical to us.
I think Py has a point up there about the environment. The environment is loaded with triggers and conditions that can make depression hard to rise out of. Just as people with compromised lungs need to live in a certain climate, people with brain disorders need environments that enable them to stay strong. Same logic applies to recovering addicts when we strongly advise them to stay away from the people and places associated with drinking and using.
These problems aren't just personal. They're social and political. Mental illnesses -- from the "common cold" kinds like the occasional depression to the persistently disabling schizophrenia -- subject our citizens to more than just social stigma. (As if that wouldn't be bad enough.) As a student of Critical Social Theory, I have become fascinated by the ways in which social systems create inequities in which inordinate benefits accrue to certain groups at the direct expense of others. Whenever I see social stigma -- in addition to wondering what ignorance lies behind it, I always question who benefits from this inequity.
Is anyone here old enough to remember Thomas Eagleton? The running mate of Sen. George McGovern, his history of depression was disclosed in public. My last memory of Sen. Eagleton is of him on TV tearfully relinquishing his place on the ticket. George McGovern dropped him like a hot rock. Compare and contrast with another veep candidate some 30 years later, a certain Richard Cheney who, despite multiple heart attacks, sailed into office unscathed by the inquiry. Part of Sen. Eagleton's problem was a profound public ignorance about mental health and illness -- but another, perhaps more important, part is that someone was able to exploit a social stigma for a direct political advantage.
Addiction and mental illness have been systematically excluded from treatment by health insurance companies for so long and to such a degree that it took the passage of a federal law to even begin to ensure that these medical conditions could be treated.
Who benefits from inequitable health care, we might ask? Who benefits from continued public ignorance about the realities of mental illness and addiction? Who reaps the benefits of the costs exacted upon us and our loved ones?
(Cindy L. Myers, PhD. is Chief Executive Officer of
Marin Services for Women in Greenbrae California.)
January 18, 2010 - 14:05
#34
Yo, Dr. Cindy!
Even as I was speaking of you upstream there! Can we get your thoughts on Martha's post too?
And thanks, that's some fabulous input.
January 18, 2010 - 14:27
#35
Thoughts on Martha's post
Well HELLO THERE and good afternoon to you too Angie Coiro!
About Martha's post upstream? Not sure exactly what you're referring to -- there's a lot in there! I'll tell you what jumps immediately to mind: people appear to be amazingly resilient. Wired through evolution to survive and thrive. Hence, when I read something as seemingly WRONG as "depression isn't an illness, it's being awake" (my paraphrase), I remind myself that what I see in that remark is evidence of one of the many ingenious ways we humans have long survived.
What I believe is that some people are incredibly good at making lemonade out of the lemons life hurls at them. Some of the most breathtaking symphonies, works of art and words ever written were the product of someone's hypersensitivity, suffering or outright madness. Some cultures have treated their oddest members as holy ones, whereas we in the western world tend to shun them.
However! While there will always be great symphonies and works of art born in the crucible of suffering, it does not therefore follow that conditions such as depression are, in themselves, heightened states of being. For every van Gogh among us, there will be 100 others whose depression will result in suicide, homicide, illness, heartbroken families and other particular forms of hell with no works of brilliance to offset the damage done.
I thank whatever powers that be that humans are so resilient. May we always be thus. Getting to the bottom of debilitating conditions, rather than romanticizing OR demonizing them, is a step in that direction.
In my own opinion.
January 19, 2010 - 14:23
#36
i'm no lady
hey, dr. cindy, just to clarify: not a lady, a woman. sorry, the description "lady" bothers me, ok???? today, after all this reading/up-dating, that's all i want to add................ interesting and confusing...
January 19, 2010 - 14:31
#37
Lol
Ya, I'm not a big fan of that word either. These days it imlpies someone that is prim and proper, and that sure isn't me :)
January 19, 2010 - 17:54
#38
Ladylike
I don't know if you know this song, by one of our PDX stars, Storm Large, but it's right on point. I suspect you'd enjoy it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G25okFg80XE
January 20, 2010 - 16:09
#39
thanks for the eye-candy !!
hey david !! checked out the video. so funny, i had happent to catch some of that series when it was on.......jeez, should i admit that out-loud?????? it's always fun to check out new girlzz, i mean, chix, no, i meant, women !!!! : )
January 20, 2010 - 17:00
#40
Ms. Large
Yes, Storm is certainly easy on the eyes. And a hell of a person. How'd you like the lyrics?
January 19, 2010 - 15:06
#41
I stand corrected
Melody and Martha -- thank you for setting me straight on that!
January 19, 2010 - 15:15
#42
so.................
.....if i'm depressed, it could be the way i was born, my growing-up environment, my societal environment, pollution, all the above, some of the above, or WHAT???? it's very complicated isn't it??? i suppose the more depression is talked about in an intelligent and non-judgemental manner, then the more us humans can figure ourselves out?!?! hey, don't animals get depressed too??? or is that "just" sadness???? domestic and wild animals, over loss, usually......i'm not being "flip" here. gotta go, actually have an interview today!!!! heavens to betsy. wish me luck.
January 19, 2010 - 15:17
#43
oh yeah................
hopefull i will be blogging tonight. yeah!!!! how exciting !!! later......
January 21, 2010 - 12:33
#44
The reality of depression
Angie, thanks for bringing up this topic. I wonder how many in our line of work are dealing with the same problem. People are always surprised and a little doubtful when they learn I have depression: “I never would have guessed from hearing you on the air!” When the mic goes on, it’s the only time I can draw my focus to one thing and away from all the rest - something about working without a net, I suppose.
I’ve suffered from this monster since I was 9. Back then people didn’t believe that children could be depressed, so I wasn’t treated for it until I was in my 40s. By that time it’s too late to either turn things around or start over. Depression has kept me from exploring opportunities in my career and led to the unbelievable financial situation I find myself in today. Still worse, the antidepressants don’t work anymore.
There is so much ignorance about depression (maybe we need our own "ribbon)". Most people don’t understand that this is a lifelong, potentially fatal disease. The obits attribute death to “apparent suicide” instead of the more accurate, “complications of depression.”
One other thought in response to a previous post: People who equate using prescribed antidepressants with “using” or drug abuse are exhibiting colossal ignorance. Walk away from them.
January 21, 2010 - 14:20
#45
guess i inadvertantly pushed some buttons....
hmmm....i find myself getting slightly angry everytime someone mentions the "using" comment. perhaps i am a little protective of my then girlfriend's feelings about it. i suppose that i only mentioned it because at that time, in the 80's, there was more talk and action about the anonymous program and how it helps, and less talk and advertisements about depression and the drugs people can use to help. didn't mean to step on toes but i would appreciate people realizing that it was the term of the 80's. i am supposing that THIS comment will now push buttons as well.........
January 21, 2010 - 14:47
#46
Didn't mean to push that button, just this one ;)
I should have been clearer that I've heard the same from people and it's pushed me away from some of the groups I looked at. I once spoke to the director of a well known hospital-based drug and alcohol rehab center about my own situation as a recovering addict with severe pain from a spinal condition. Some NA members told me that because I use medication, I'm still "using." The director's opinion is that there is a clear difference between treating pain and getting high. As long as one is using pain medication as directed by the MD, the patient isn't and shouldn't be considered to be "using." I think that approach applies to any prescribed meds.
January 21, 2010 - 14:59
#47
not just you
hey!!! i wasn't jumping on you solely.....there have been other comments from folks yesterday/few days ago that when i saw your comment, i had realized that i needed to say something cuz i found that i was suppressing my anger and needed to release it hopefully gently..........ok??
January 21, 2010 - 19:55
#48
To quote Bugs bunny
Bugs and Yosemite sam looking at each other, sam looks like a space kadet, and bugs is dressed like a robot, with a LARGE red button on his chest.
"everything will be alright. Just don't press this button" *pointing at the button*
*Sam bursts out "OH YEA!! WEll I'm Saturn Sam, and I'll do what I want, and I'm pushin that button!!"
*He presses button, and gets walloped by a large fist popping out of the robot costume.*
Classic Warners.
January 26, 2010 - 20:06
#49
Miss your show
Angie, you are a bright star shining above the dismal swamp called AM radio. I hope you will return soon to Green 960. Mike Malloy is too abrasive, and far too repetitive.
I read your essay on depression. I empathize, as I've had bouts of it starting at age 13. I've often wondered whether there can be a connection to puberty.
I know, too, how one feels one has to hide the condition, to be upbeat, witty, creative or risk being demeaned or shunned. I will say, too, that since adopting a vegan diet, I have not had any depression. You are what you eat?
Good luck, and come back soon to your listeners and fans.
I tried without success to find you on Facebook...
hey angie!! just want to say: hey, i know what you're going through, or i ought to say, i have had similar circumstances in my life. i go through definite ups and downs in my life, sometimes not being able to leave my own home for a couple of days. when my mom died (she was 42 yrs, i was 21 yrs), i "left" my life for about 3 weeks. shut down: no work, relationship having troubles, just hung out at home. when my father died 10 ago, when i was 40yrs, him being i think 73 yrs or so, i remember taking some time off at work. still, the tears and sadness creeps up on me. of course it does. hell, i still cry over my best kitty dying, and that's been 15 years ago!! i don't know, i guess i want you to take time and not do anything, or much of anything. you have been through a lot, yeah?? yeah, sure, i miss you and your insights and laughter. but i TOTALLY understand that perhaps hanging out with your kitties in bed with some ice-cream (i know, not good with us depressed types) or a DVD movie marathon, just for a little bit. should i be saying all this??? : ) big hug from me. melody